Ara Papian, the former Armenian Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary to Canada and the Head of the “Modus Vivendi” Center, thinks that a moment will come when the interests of the super powers and Armenia will coincide.
– This time last year when Armenian-Turkish protocols entered the Turkish parliament, people from government circles of Armenia were speaking of ratifying the protocols by the end of the year and even about expectations of opening the border. In your assessment, was that optimism groundless from the beginning or nevertheless, there were some processes between the two countries, which led to this present result?
– The process was doomed, as we knew from the beginning that Turkey has 3 preconditions put forward since 1990s; recognition of the existing border, end of pursuing the Genocide issue and the Karabakh conflict settlement, in accordance with their perception. And under these circumstances, starting such process was just a result of unawareness. New people came into politics, new ministers did in America and in Armenia. And as they did not realize the complexity of that issue, it seemed to them that they would come and would do something great and everything would be good. And, for example, the Russians were more informed, therefore they were waiting with a smile on their faces.
– And the Turkish side?
– As to the Turkish side, they realized everything quite well and they have always honestly said nothing will happen till Karabakh issue is solved.
– But the Karabakh issue wasn’t mentioned in the protocols, was it?
– It doesn’t matter. The Turkish side, if you remember, wanted to make a statement at the moment of signing that wasn’t done due to the Armenian side’s opposition. According to the Vienna Convention, the statement made at the moment of signing is equipollent to the agreement provisions. Probably the Turks thought that two preconditions they had put forward, the issues of the Genocide and the border were in the protocols already and they would add the third one with a statement equipotent to the agreement at the moment of signing. However, since they didn’t succeed, they immediately lost interest. Certainly, Azerbaijan’s unexpectedly tougher stance played a certain role here.
– Mr. Papian, you make a proposition to lease the Armenian land reaffirmed by Woodrow Wilson’s Arbitral Award and being in Turkey now to Turks. Providing that Turkey doesn’t even want to open the border how realistic is it to speak of realizing Wilson’s Arbitral Award today?
– It is realistic, as it must be done under external pressure. What was stipulated by the protocols depended on Turkey’s goodwill. And what I propose, I say must be imposed on the Turks.
– And how, with what mechanisms?
– Turkey gradually, despite becoming Armenia’s enemy, also becomes an enemy of the Western values, an enemy of Europe and the US. Therefore, the principle that the enemy of our enemy is our friend starts to be in effect. And the moment will come when the European, American and Russian interests will coincide with the Armenian interests. And when that moment comes and it will certainly come and the West makes a political decision that Turkey is not its ally in the Middle East any more, I assure you they will find all the necessary means for putting Turkey under pressure. However, we should avoid doing two things for that end: we shouldn’t disrupt our legal grounds and we should prepare the public opinion and legal packages.
– Can the process of these protocols disrupt the legal grounds you have mentioned? At the end of the day, this was an attempt that failed.
– No, I don’t agree. Because as a result of all this Turkey, in response to any attempt of the West to put it under pressure, says that there is a process going on between Armenia and Turkey that is not over and is not even frozen, therefore don’t disturb us.
– What is the most rational way out of this?
– Armenia has to denounce her signature, stating the readiness of normalizing the relations, but another clearer and shorter document should be put forward on opening the border or I should say opening the check-points and establishing diplomatic relations.
– Don’t you think that Armenia may suffer losses giving up the process first?
– On the contrary, if Armenia gives it up, she will stop losing, as Turkey will not be able to shut everyone’s mouth then, saying that there is a process with Armenia.
– How will this decision be perceived by the superpowers that sponsored this process?
– It will be perceived very positively. Moreover, we must realize whether we pursue policy for the superpowers’ perception or for defending our own interest. At the end of the day, if we compare Armenia-Turkey relations before 2009 with those of now, we will see that today those relations are much tenser. It is clearly learned also from the statements of the Turkish leadership – today Turkey speaks of the readiness to free Karabakh along with Azerbaijan… And all this is a result of the protocols, with which we brought Turkey into our region where she had had no entrance before.
– The ministers of foreign affairs of other countries of the region, i.e. Iran and Georgia, who made quite warm statements, have been in Armenia the other day. In your assessment, does Armenia have at least one neighbor today, with which she has “zero problems”.
– In case of Iran, certainly the fact that this country has serious problems with the West has certain significance and we cannot help, but take that into account. However, we manage to build our relations with Iran rather successfully. As to Georgia, in this case, I don’t see any warm policy from the Georgian side toward Armenia, except for words. Today Georgia pursues such a policy toward Armenia that is a bit better than that of Azerbaijan and a bit worse than that of Turkey. For example, you may take Armenian magazines, books to Turkey and you will have no problems. But you cannot take those to Georgia – they will just confiscate those on the border. Georgia makes us pay extremely high tariffs, however, according to the 1998 convention of the countries not having an outlet to the sea, she took on the obligation of giving us a national status, i.e. not to make us pay more than the Georgian companies. It is not done. Today sending one container from Yerevan to Poti costs as much, as from Poti to Montreal. There are no such prices in the world. So they put us in a desperate situation and we are grateful for that. But in the end the world is not a jungle – there is a certain order. And if today Georgia thinks she is a barbarian, then she can say I don’t care for the world and the international regulations and skin Armenia alive. However, let them say that and not on one hand pretend to be a democratic and westernizing country and on the other violate the rights of the minorities and the neighboring countries.
AREVIK SAHAKYAN
