“Face to Face” program hosts a debate between Aram Sargsyan, leader of the Democratic Party of Armenia, and Azat Arshakyan, a former member of the Supreme Council.
Hripsime Jebejyan – Mr. Sargsyan, still last year in December, after Serzh Sargsyan’s speech at the CSTO summit when the question was raised again why Armenia’s representative does not hold the office of the CSTO Secretary-General, you said you Tigran Sargsyan’s new position in the EaEU was an obstacle, giving two positions to Armenia at a time, the Turks would hardly stand it. You said that this problem will be resolved next year. Now, how will you interpret that Armenia’s representative is not holding this position?
Aram Sargsyan – There is Kazakhstan there, which protects the interests of its bloody state, and there is Lukashenka who does not want to spoil his relations with Azerbaijan because he has his own economic interests. We should take this into account, serious states must first of all be guided by their national interests. Whether they like it or not, they are going to approve Armenia’s representative this year-end because if there were an alternative, it would be a great shame. In both cases, it will turn out that whether we have not nominated a good candidate as they might think, or by taking on the responsibility, we will not be able to implement it. In both cases, it is an insult for Armenia, and it is clear that we should draw conclusions.
I do not think that we will get to it. Russia’s posture connected with this region, the problem of Russian-American and Russian-Western relations, they still are trying to maintain the system, which is reliable for them. The CSTO will not collapse, it might happen that one member may withdraw, this union is beneficial to all, they do not have anywhere to go. They cannot appear in the membership of NATO. If we were prepared to defend ourselves, we could get rid of their pressures. But when we have led us to this difficult economic situation, we need weapons. Let us not forget that Russia is the main actor of CSTO. If you do not want, change this status. The problem is what are the potentials of the country. If you are saying in an abstract way: “Wow, the Russians are not good, we must get rid of the Russians,” so get rid of them, in that case, find an appropriate location to secure yourself, and if you are not doing it, then it is senseless and harmful to moan.
Read also
H. J.- Mr. Arshakyan, do we not have an alternative? Why have we joined the CSTO? There is not collective security protection there because the interests of the member states do not coincide. What problem are we solving there?
Azat Arshakyan – The West led by the United States won the Soviet Union in the Cold War, and in return, the losing party paid a “ransom”: 6 republics withdrew from the zone of its influence. Now, what is our status: our partners in the CSTO tell us that we are not from their club, and we do not even want to trust you a position. They know that we are not one of them, we are good. We want democracy, freedom and independence. In CSTO, we are a hostage.
A. S. – May I recall a fact, Mr. Arshakyan. In 1997, the government where Mr. Arshakyan was also in, headed by Levon Ter-Petrosyan, signed an agreement with Russia when we were independent and were building a country: powerful, bright, had already resolved the NK problem. Mr. Ter-Petrosyan forgot about it that we had a December 1 decision, and when going to the United Nations, he did not make a reservation that NKR is not a part of Azerbaijan. It is always very easy to criticize others and blame him, and I want to understand our fault correctly why we are in this situation today. If this was our idea, why he went and signed this big agreement with Russians?
A. A. – Surely, we must correct our mistakes. If I were the foreign minister, apparently, I would have talked to them differently, but since I do not have these powers, I am suggesting maximal demands: cancel the Kars Treaty and recognize Karabakh’s joining. Fulfill the decision, which we have voted for at the Supreme Council. I was in the Supreme Council at that time, and I have my share of the blame. I certainly have voted in favor of the agreements with Russia because I consider Russia, France and Norway a partner to us. Russia is our strategic ally in terms of civilization, and when he sets back from civilization, Ivan the Greats emerge, we tolerate saying that Russia will be set right. But it is one thing with Russia and another thing with the CSTO, EaEU and CCCP empire. I used to say then that these are partnership relations, long live equality of all peoples.
H. J. – Are our relations partnership now?
A. A. – Now, no. We are patriotic people. We do not recognize vassalage, it is imposed on us. For example, we are a hostage in the CSTO. Being in unequal conditions with Kazakhstan, Russia and Belarus is a hostage-taking, if they even do not want to give a position and do not vote when there are questions arising from our interest. Repeat the Minsk Group statement on Nagorno-Karabakh, they do not do it either. They voted 4 against 1.
H. J. – Mr. Sargsyan, are we hostage? It turns out that Azerbaijan not being a CSTO member has a greater influence on this structure in terms of decisions, political “chill” of the presidents than Armenia.
A. S. – What is it caused by? Why is it so? Let us try to understand. Nothing primitive can be viewed in the politics, it has many different layers. Azerbaijan has economically developed due to its oil and gas, it has influential aspects where it can use. Armenia has made a regress in all ways: economic and social. We have suffered a lot from emigration. In that case, with whom do they reckon? The one who is stronger, more powerful and capable … Yes, we can become a hostage if we are unable to protect our interests. If the people do not trust their government, everyone knows about it and not only us. If it does not meet our interests, let’s think of something else or withdraw. But withdrawal at this point is nonsense because we have very serious relations with our strategic partner, who is the first violin there. We must treat cleverly – diplomatically.
A. A. – We must be strong, hit our fist on the table, on their round the table.
H. J. – If we can let’s talk about Sergey Lavrov’s, Çavuşoğlu’s and Aliyev’s statements.
A. A. – They endangered themselves, stating that they are against the people’s equality and the right to self-determination. Aliyev approved this, Lavrov protected and Çavuşoğlu applauded. They stood on the other side of the barricades. Aliyev made a gross mistake by saying that they cannot recognize the right of the people living in Nagorno-Karabakh to self-determination. He made a gross mistake and acted against the US Declaration, paragraph 1.
Hripsime JEBEJYAN
